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Oversize and late

Hanoi, Vietnam
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Oversize and late

US Airways:

elliott.org/blog/…

Italy
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11. Re: Oversize and late

Yes, this story is a bit strange, there has to be more to it, there is no way they'd let a passenger stand up during take off and landing.

Madrid
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12. Re: Oversize and late

The story is now showing up on the press.I wonder what will happen next?

Pacifica, California
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13. Re: Oversize and late

If it's now showing up in the press, I'd expect US Air to give the guy a full refund and offer a lame, public excuse about how US Air procedures weren't followed in this situation.

Oregon Coast
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for Crescent City, Oregon Coast, Oregon, Redwood National Park
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14. Re: Oversize and late

I still don't believe it . . .

San Francisco...
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15. Re: Oversize and late

from his account:

“It did not allow me to use my seatbelt during takeoff and landing as well as required me to stand in the aisle and galley area for most of the seven-hour plus flight,”

he didn't say he stood during take off and landing, only that he couldn't use his seat belt, and also, that he stood for MOST of the 7-hour flight.

We have been in that position--emergency red eye from SFO to MKE when my MIL had a stroke. we were lucky to get seats at the last minute, on united. our seats were in the last row, and the middle seat was empty. (since it was a bereavement flight, a phone reservation agentbooked our seats for us) just before they closed the doors, a huge huge man came down the aisle and yes, he's headed for our middle seat.

as i am extremely claustrophobic, i am not wiling to give up my aisle seat, especially if i am going to be wedged in the middle. Mr S, already upset, spent the flight crammed against the window. i practically fell out of my seat. i did feel sorry for the man, who slept with his arms crossed over his chest so he would not hang over any more than "necessary." he should have had two seats. BUT, perhaps he, too, was on a bereavement flight and had no choice.

Oregon Coast
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for Crescent City, Oregon Coast, Oregon, Redwood National Park
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16. Re: Oversize and late

Pretty sure FAA regulations *require* seat belts to be fastened for takeoff and landing.

Will be interesting to hear GOPBI's take on this alledged "incident".

Craigavon, United...
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17. Re: Oversize and late

This story has now crossed the pond & was reported on our local radio show this morning in Northern Ireland.

Bangkok
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18. Re: Oversize and late

Hi,

FAA standards on the issue are codified under language found in either FAR 121.311 and/or 121.317

FAR 121.311:

http://tinyurl.com/7vunal6

FAR 121.317:

http://tinyurl.com/7qw8x8f

First, FAR 121.311(a) does say

"(a) No person may operate an airplane unless there are available during the takeoff, en route flight, and landing—"

Note that it says *available* and not *use*.. So, this speaks to the issue of "does he have to have one (a safety belt)? Yes s/he does have to HAVE one available for his/her use.. and this is codified under this section..

Next is the question of essentially does have have to USE it..

In this same section, but part 2(b) says

"(b) Except as provided in this paragraph, each person on board an airplane operated under this part shall occupy an approved seat or berth with a separate safety belt properly secured about him or her during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing...."

Note that in this case it also says "properly secured"-- which is essentially the same thing as 'use'. So, for movement--which is known as taxi, take-off and landing. yes the passenger must also USE the belt.. again, not a judgement call, but one that's clearly set forth under this section of FAR's.

As to the question of can he stand for the whole flight goes...

FAR 121.317(f) speaks to this by way of

"(f) Each passenger required by §121.311(b) to occupy a seat or berth shall fasten his or her safety belt about him or her and keep it fastened while the “Fasten Seat Belt” sign is lighted."

Note that this section only makes it *mandatory* when the Captain/PIC or other proper designate illuminates the fasten seat belt sign... at other times, the current FAR's do make it *optional* UNLESS again, the Captain/PIC or designate has said otherwise.

So.. when it's all said and done.. As I read this story--- and to the extent that we have the whole story or not.. I see NO violations of FAR's.. >>so long as<< three things are correct:

1) He had a seat belt AVAILABLE for his use..

2) When on the ground and for taxi/take-off/landing he actually USED it, and

3) At any/all times when the fasten seat belt sign was illuminated he returned to his seat (or any approved passenger use seat) AND used the belt.

These are essentially the current parameters that the FAA sets forth for passenger seat-belt use.. Again, the Captain as PIC (Pilot In Command) may EXCEED these limits-- essentially s/he can require that seat-belts be used for longer than the FAR's require (such as times during flight)-- as s/he see fit, but may not be "less-than" these limits..

Lastly, as to the issues that the US Airways Cabin Crew refused his request to occupy a cabin crew jump seat.. This is correct.. Again, the FAA speaks to who is and is not certified to occupy-- at any point in the flight-- a cabin jump-seat or flight deck jump-seat...

Essentially, unless you hold current FAA cabin crew certification *and* the carrier involved (in this case US Airways) permits such, a passenger may not occupy a jump-seat at any point in time and regardless as to how long..

As to flight deck, the same restrictions apply-- but due to the security aspect the TSA/DHS mandates that only a very few classes of people are permitted to legally occupy or even enter the flight deck any phase of flight... nothing in this story comes even close to meeting these one or more of these admission standards.

In all, it sounds -- again only from what's written and without the benefit of 'the other side', that there was perhaps some better ways to address this.. all of them being before departure.

In my mind, this issue .. "passenger of size" is becoming more common.. and as as result I do think that the FAA or DOT should chime in with some guidelines or 'standards' as to what's acceptable protocol not..

Again, as a base premise, I don't like more Federal regulations, but since this issue is one that can easily encroach into a safety matter. I think that it would be better overall for everyone, if the FAA were to issues a directive so that ALL US carriers are working from the same page on this issue.

Travel Safe,

Bournemouth, United...
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19. Re: Oversize and late

i find this story very difficult to believe,The pilate would not let a plane take off or land without everybody on board seated and seatbelted in, The purser would have to get the permision from the captain to allow a pasenger to stand up whilst taking off and landing, this permision would not be granted and one of the passengers would be offloaded

Madrid
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20. Re: Oversize and late

The OP did not say he was standing up for take off and landing,just that he was unable to fasten his seatbelt.He allegedly stood for most of the flight.

Point 3 by GOPBI is the important one.When the fasten seatbelt sign is illuminated,that is an instruction from the Captain,enforced by the Crew.If the OP was unable to fasten his seatbelt,he should have notified the US Airways cabin crew immediately and had the matter resolved.