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Not as it appears

New York
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Not as it appears

I decided to write a post here just to suggest that people do some more research before making their safari. I wish I had done some more, but some things are not so obviouse.

I traveled with Safari Legacy. Come to find out it is a company owned by an Indian Family that made their fortune in Hunting. The guide says the company no longer does hunting but that the owner is still hunting quite often. I was shocked as the company seems to be very conservation oriented.

I then was told how these Indian owned companies treat Tanzanians. At first I assumed that it was a ploy to get tips, but many Tanzanians freely confirmed that it is common that Indians treat Tanzanians very badly. The working conditions are very poor and the salaries are very low.

I was also surprised that there are so many Indians in Tanzania. They seem to own most of the shops. Also after asking around it turns out that they own many of the "local" tour companies. This includes: Safari Legacy, Easy Travel, Roy Safaris, Leopard, and Predator from what I was told. I am sure there are others. Indians also own SOPA lodges. Don't be fooled into thinking you are booking locally when you are actually booking with Indians that treat locals bad.

Ottawa, Canada
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1. Re: Not as it appears

There have been families of Indian heritage for generations in Tanzania and are much more local than a great number of the Canadian population who have been here for only a generation or two; and dare I say America as well? So please, before you paint an entire race with the same brush, do take a breath and complete some more research as to the country's entire demographics.

It is very hard to research every camp for hunting history and they know to not broadcast it. But also remember that before Tanzania became popular for the 'photographic' safari traveler, it was a hunter's destination for years. For families in the business for a long period of time, they will have a history in the field.

I am not supporting this specific family, as I heard before about their hunting history and their own personal participation, but the broad brush comments mean you lose a bit of credibility.

Isle of Man, United...
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2. Re: Not as it appears

I agree. Are we to condemn Kikoti because of its current hunting links or jut because it is Indian owned? Asians (Indians) have been in Africa for many generations. Many have prospered by dint of sheer hard work.

It is too easy to condemn as a race. That is what Idi Amin did in Uganda (remember that?) and threw them out. The country all but collapsed for many reasons but now "Indians" are made welcome and their properties are being restored to them in Uganda.

So let us have no more about "Indians". These people have been in Africa since their ancestors came as a labour force nearly 200 years ago. About the same time as the Maasai. Are we to boycott them too?

By all means avoid places where Hunting is practised but let us not do it just because the ownership is vested in non ethnic "Africans!"

If we apply that rule everywhere, what price doing business in New Amsterdam?

Sorry Bob, you are wide of the mark here. Good idea, bum delivery!

nyc
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3. Re: Not as it appears

Wow! Get a grip, technically, we're all African. The 'wazungu' (and those of other hues) have been on the Continent for hundreds of years and who's to say that the many who arrived for freedom from slaughter, to establish hospitals and schools, and especially the missionaries who were hot on converting the 'natives' to some form of Christianity are all bad.

And the west doesn't have cleaner hands having supported slavery for some 500/years.

As Karl says often - 'when you point a finger, there are three facing back at you.'

Are we expected to 'stop and frisk' all people for their papers to be assured someone a hundred plus years ago didn't kill an antelope to feed their family. Or those who grew up with a culture of hunting that have finally come to 'see the light.'

Before you blame an entire race of people, learn your history and not post such a nasty and bigoted thread.

Good place to start would be for Tanzania to outlaw hunting regardless where within their borders.

melbourne
Destination Expert
for Tanzania
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4. Re: Not as it appears

There are many non ethnic Africans who own Safari companies but live and work in Tz and have for years.

My sentiments are the same as the 3 previous posters I couldn't express it though as well as they do.

I would leave Kikoti off my itinerary because of the hunting links not the because of the race of the owners.

There is no place for racism of any form on any forum.

Edited: 04 November 2013, 21:10
Honolulu, Hawaii
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5. Re: Not as it appears

Somewhat surprised no one picked up on the point about how bad the Tanzanian employes were being treated. As if that is all right. Isn't that racism noexpert?

Biting my tongue hard here, trying not to get in troubles.

Here in Hawaii a bunch of white people came in and discriminated against another race.

That is all I am going to say...

Bristol
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6. Re: Not as it appears

Aloha, I think it depends on what is considered "being badly treated".

We met a Tanzanian guide on one of our trips who didn't have a good word to say about his previous Indian employer and therefore Indians in general. His mother who lived in a village quite a way from Arusha had got sick. When he asked for some time off to visit his mother his employer gave him 2 weeks off. The guide however did not return to Arusha for 3 months and was surprised to find he no longer had a job!! He felt he had been very "badly treated" by his employer!! Was he??

So I think we have to be careful to make judgements based on what a few people might say and perhaps need to look further into whether these comments are justified.

Isle of Man, United...
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7. Re: Not as it appears

I agree. "Being badly treated" is a common theme anywhere in the world. I generally take it with a pinch of salt in TZ as a lot of Guides do this to get the sympathy vote and thus maybe a better tip or generous treatment..

<Here in Hawaii a bunch of white people came in and discriminated against another race.> Not just Hawaii. How about South Africa? I don't think the American settlers have much cause to be proud either.

Findlay, Ohio
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for Tanzania, Ngorongoro Conservation Area
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8. Re: Not as it appears

Since I come from a place where everyone here is an immigrant from somewhere (the USA, and yes our native population came from somewhere else also) perhaps I could comment. And because we have so many from so many different places, it means that this is experienced quite a lot.

Xenophobia is equivalent to shallow and bad thinking, no matter where you are located and no matter who is doing it. And it's a disease which affects almost all countries. For some reason humans seem to always want to find someone different, as though this someone else might be able to cover up their own flaws. In Tanzania, there is terrible xenophobic behavior; both from the "native" population and from the Asian population at times. And if that isn't bad enough, you should see how they act towards and treat those from China. In fact, there are newspaper editorial cartoons made about this xenophobic behavior. And then this xenophobia carries on down to the tribes, many others think that the wachagga can't be trusted, the wagogo are lazy, the Maasai are greedy, the wanyaturu only think of their cattle, and on and on - and none of it is altogether true, I have Asian friends there whose families have been in Tz for many generations, most having escaped the class xenophobia which was prevalent in India for many years, and they came to Africa to start new lives in a new place. In America we typically have found that to be a noble thing to do; albeit not always shown and it seems that once settled in we tend to want to keep this for ourselves and keep others, especially those not quite like us, out. Scratch anyone here very deeply and you don't find an American, you will find a German, Englishman, Swiss, French, Asian, African, and on and on.

I've seen Asians in Tz who go to the cancer hospital on Ocean Road in Dar every day and bring food to give to the patients there (that is the only way they get food except for what their family might bring them); and not looking to only serve those like themselves but rather serve anyone who is hungry that day. I've seen Asians in Tz send children every year to hospitals in India for various treatments not available in Tz, and I don't mean just a few but rather hundreds each year. And I've seen Asians there who have built good businesses that employ many Africans (and in that I include other Africans of Asian descent). And, of course, I've seen Asians in Tz who have treated others with disrespect, including native Africans. And I've seen "narive" Africans who have treated Asian Africans with a lot of disrespect. They are all merely people and they display all sorts of behavior from time to time. Some is good, some is not so good.

Xenophobic behavior = a shallow thinking; no matter who is exhibiting it.

Isle of Man, United...
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9. Re: Not as it appears

<and yes our native population came from somewhere else also>

True enough. In fact if the latest books are right we all started out near Oldupai in Tanzania.

As they say "this is where we came in!" (not that the native Tanzanians can claim it as their ancestral home as they mostly came from Bantu stock.)

New York
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10. Re: Not as it appears

Many of the comments on my post are well said. I am probably wrong in making a general comment about all Indian owners. However, I feel that many of the "experts" on this forum are often saying to book with a local company as I thought I was doing. You are saying that this is better for the country. So that is why I moved away from a few foreign owned (but locally registered) companies. In the end I don't think an Indian owned company is any better than an other foreign owned company. They just hide it so that you think it is a well organized locally owned company.

I was intrigued by the number of Indians that own companies in Tanzania. And since I was also suspicious of the comments of the guide, I asked a lot of people from all walks of life. Even a police officer told me that the worse person you can work for is an Indian. A park ranger that walked with me in Ngorongoro told me that many Indian companies don't pay park fees and they are very corrupt. In the end I firmly believe that many Indians do not treat Tanzanians fairly and run business in a questionable manner. So if you are going to promote people to buy locally, then that should mean that they buy from Tanzanian owned companies.

To cut off the response that is probably going to come. Yes, many Indians were born in Tanzania, but most of them keep British Passports. So if they refuse to take the nationality then can they be considered as Tanzanians?

Additionally, I hear that there are other hunting companies also offering safaris, so do lots of research and know who you are traveling with and what they are about.